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【編者按：南非長(zhǎng)期以來(lái)是非洲發(fā)展程度最高的大國(guó)，對(duì)華貿(mào)易也是非洲之最，2022年南非對(duì)華貿(mào)易額占中非總貿(mào)易額逾20%。

南非也是非洲最后完成“去殖民化”的國(guó)家，直到1994年，歧視黑人、實(shí)施種族隔離的執(zhí)政政府才倒臺(tái)。自此，南非實(shí)現(xiàn)全面民主化，同時(shí)也是全球南方概念的堅(jiān)定擁護(hù)者。

2022年初俄烏沖突爆發(fā)以來(lái)，南非秉持中立，多次表示愿意從中調(diào)解。即將在南非召開(kāi)的金磚國(guó)家領(lǐng)導(dǎo)人峰會(huì)，也給了南非更多展示的機(jī)會(huì)。

近日，南非國(guó)家行政學(xué)院院長(zhǎng)布薩尼·恩格卡維尼（Busani Ngcaweni）接受觀察者網(wǎng)對(duì)話。他表達(dá)了南非對(duì)于召開(kāi)金磚峰會(huì)的熱情，介紹了南非在國(guó)際關(guān)系問(wèn)題上的處事原則，回顧了中國(guó)與南非多領(lǐng)域多層次的合作經(jīng)歷，并闡述非洲發(fā)展的成果以及仍需解決的難題?！?

恩格卡維尼受訪照片

【對(duì)話、編輯/觀察者網(wǎng)  李澤西】

南非的“金磚時(shí)刻”

觀察者網(wǎng)：本次金磚峰會(huì)，俄羅斯總統(tǒng)普京原定親自出席即將在貴國(guó)舉行的金磚峰會(huì)，但最終還是由拉夫羅夫外長(zhǎng)出席。您認(rèn)為是什么原因?qū)е铝诉@一變化？有人指出美國(guó)在其中扮演了一定的角色，并聲稱(chēng)這代表了美國(guó)外交的一次勝利。您對(duì)此有何看法？

恩格卡維尼：南非政府稍早前表示，根據(jù)雙方協(xié)議，普京總統(tǒng)不會(huì)來(lái)南非。在同一聲明中還強(qiáng)調(diào)，俄羅斯仍然是金磚的積極參與者。我還沒(méi)有從任何一個(gè)金磚成員國(guó)那里讀到因此質(zhì)疑金磚的聲明，許多國(guó)家已經(jīng)派出了代表團(tuán)。

在南非，人們對(duì)峰會(huì)充滿(mǎn)期待，情緒高漲。南非已經(jīng)舉行了六次各層級(jí)的金磚峰會(huì)，我最近親自主持了一次金磚國(guó)家政府學(xué)院會(huì)議，與會(huì)者來(lái)自圣保羅、圣彼得堡、新德里等地，有1100人在線參加，250人出席，會(huì)上提交了50篇論文。

就第二個(gè)問(wèn)題，正如我國(guó)外交部長(zhǎng)之前所說(shuō)的那樣，南非在外交關(guān)系問(wèn)題上有自己的立場(chǎng)。我相信你們已經(jīng)看過(guò)我國(guó)外長(zhǎng)重申南非在這方面立場(chǎng)的視頻，南非不會(huì)因?yàn)槭艿狡渌麌?guó)家的影響而做出決定。在不結(jié)盟問(wèn)題上，我們的立場(chǎng)一直非常堅(jiān)定。南非參與了“非洲和平倡議”，我們的總統(tǒng)與多個(gè)非洲國(guó)家元首去了俄羅斯和烏克蘭，推動(dòng)俄烏沖突和談。

6月16日，澤連斯基會(huì)見(jiàn)非洲和平代表團(tuán)（圖源：視覺(jué)中國(guó)）

觀察者網(wǎng)：南非對(duì)俄烏沖突的立場(chǎng)似乎讓西方國(guó)家很不滿(mǎn)意。他們可能認(rèn)為，南非應(yīng)該屬于西方的一部分。而南非在過(guò)去一年里的表態(tài)之所以會(huì)引起西方如此強(qiáng)烈的反應(yīng)，也許就是因?yàn)榕c他們的假設(shè)相悖。

恩格卡維尼：南非從一開(kāi)始就是不結(jié)盟運(yùn)動(dòng)的一部分。非洲人國(guó)民大會(huì)（下文簡(jiǎn)稱(chēng)“非國(guó)大”）甚至在1994年掌權(quán)之前，就一直在參與不結(jié)盟運(yùn)動(dòng)，還參加了萬(wàn)隆會(huì)議，那是一個(gè)團(tuán)結(jié)亞洲、非洲、拉丁美洲乃至整個(gè)全球南方的重要時(shí)刻，不過(guò)，當(dāng)時(shí)南非的種族隔離政府沒(méi)有派代表參加會(huì)議。

因此，非洲人國(guó)民大會(huì)的不結(jié)盟立場(chǎng)是一貫的。當(dāng)然，沖突各方都有自己的觀點(diǎn)和愿望，并試圖讓盡可能多的人支持他們的觀點(diǎn)。對(duì)南非來(lái)說(shuō)，最重要的是呼吁和平解決爭(zhēng)端，這是國(guó)家發(fā)展的必要條件。

觀察者網(wǎng)：正如您所說(shuō)，全球南方將選擇自己的道路，不會(huì)被拖入一場(chǎng)所謂的新冷戰(zhàn)，但如果我們回顧一下冷戰(zhàn)時(shí)期的南非，是美蘇對(duì)抗的前線國(guó)家，因?yàn)楫?dāng)時(shí)的種族隔離政府長(zhǎng)期得到美國(guó)支持，而非國(guó)大也得到了蘇聯(lián)的一些支持。那么，南非如何才能避免在任何新的對(duì)抗中被動(dòng)成為對(duì)抗前線國(guó)家？

恩格卡維尼：有時(shí)，政府會(huì)對(duì)國(guó)際形勢(shì)采取一定的立場(chǎng)，但這并不總能轉(zhuǎn)化為民意。我之所以這么說(shuō)，是因?yàn)楫?dāng)時(shí)美國(guó)、英國(guó)和以色列都不支持宣布種族隔離為反人類(lèi)罪，但英國(guó)和美國(guó)的民眾掀起了一場(chǎng)反種族隔離運(yùn)動(dòng)。非國(guó)大的領(lǐng)導(dǎo)層當(dāng)時(shí)在倫敦，英國(guó)政府卻拒絕譴責(zé)南非發(fā)生的一切是恐怖主義。

英國(guó)1985年反對(duì)南非種族隔離的示威

因此，我個(gè)人認(rèn)為，政府可以采取特定立場(chǎng)，但無(wú)論是全球發(fā)展倡議、金磚提出的倡議還是中非合作論壇等場(chǎng)合的聲明，正如中國(guó)所強(qiáng)調(diào)的建立文化紐帶和人與人之間的交往，意味著這些紐帶將超越某一屆政府的立場(chǎng)。

盡管兩國(guó)之間存在對(duì)立情況，但有些中國(guó)人喜歡美國(guó)產(chǎn)品，有些美國(guó)人喜歡中國(guó)產(chǎn)品，這是市場(chǎng)的態(tài)度。因此，投資人文交流才是最根本所在，因?yàn)橛辛诉@些強(qiáng)有力的聯(lián)系，就可以避免戰(zhàn)爭(zhēng)和沖突。世界上任何地方都是如此。

觀察者網(wǎng)：金磚峰會(huì)正在吸引越來(lái)越多的發(fā)展中國(guó)家。自萬(wàn)隆會(huì)議以來(lái)，全球南方的概念已經(jīng)發(fā)生了很大變化。蘇聯(lián)解體后，美國(guó)成了唯一的超級(jí)大國(guó)，現(xiàn)在又試圖與中國(guó)展開(kāi)所謂的新冷戰(zhàn)。您認(rèn)為地緣政治格局的這些變化，對(duì)“全球南方”的概念意味著什么？

恩格卡維尼：中國(guó)和美國(guó)過(guò)去幾年有貿(mào)易戰(zhàn)，現(xiàn)在又有了芯片戰(zhàn)，但即使政府采取更強(qiáng)硬的立場(chǎng)，中國(guó)人依舊在消費(fèi)美國(guó)產(chǎn)品，美國(guó)人也在繼續(xù)消費(fèi)中國(guó)產(chǎn)品。

因此，無(wú)論存在什么隔閡，都不能阻擋全球南方實(shí)現(xiàn)經(jīng)濟(jì)繁榮的勢(shì)頭。美國(guó)是我們僅次于中國(guó)的第二大貿(mào)易伙伴，我們需要在全球南方內(nèi)部進(jìn)行投資，也需要從“南北關(guān)系”中獲得投資。

觀察者網(wǎng)：中國(guó)外交部長(zhǎng)王毅在7月23日訪問(wèn)南非期間，提到全球南方國(guó)家應(yīng)在新一輪全球治理體系變革中擴(kuò)大話語(yǔ)權(quán)。您認(rèn)為如何才能實(shí)現(xiàn)這一目標(biāo)？

7月25日，王毅與金磚各國(guó)代表共同出席第十三次金磚國(guó)家安全事務(wù)高級(jí)代表會(huì)議。圖自中國(guó)外交部網(wǎng)站

恩格卡維尼：對(duì)于全球南方來(lái)說(shuō)，重要的是在和平、國(guó)家發(fā)展、公平公正等多邊主義議程上有統(tǒng)一的聲音，在此基礎(chǔ)上，制定行動(dòng)方案并付諸實(shí)施就會(huì)變得相對(duì)容易。舉例來(lái)說(shuō)，全球南方國(guó)家認(rèn)為多邊主義的體系需要轉(zhuǎn)型，更加具有代表性、公平性，滿(mǎn)足全球社會(huì)的需求，尤其是發(fā)展中國(guó)家的需求。有了這個(gè)共識(shí)，就可以啟動(dòng)行動(dòng)方案應(yīng)對(duì)挑戰(zhàn)。

通過(guò)全球南方國(guó)家與金磚國(guó)家組織的接觸，前者希望后者能夠提供一個(gè)公平、公正和有代表性多邊主義的平臺(tái)，這正是全球南方國(guó)家的目標(biāo)。我們必須記住，并不是所有的全球南方國(guó)家都能與全球北方國(guó)家（主要指西方發(fā)達(dá)國(guó)家）進(jìn)行開(kāi)放貿(mào)易、獲取低利率貸款，或者輕易與他們的民眾開(kāi)展人文交往。

南非之所以邀請(qǐng)了這么多國(guó)家元首參加金磚峰會(huì)，是因?yàn)槲覀兝斫饨鸫u國(guó)家所肩負(fù)的責(zé)任：我們不僅要代表自己，還要支持全球發(fā)展的事業(yè)、支持自己鄰國(guó)發(fā)展的事業(yè)。任何國(guó)家都不可能作為一個(gè)孤島獨(dú)自發(fā)展，這在歷史上從未發(fā)生過(guò)，今后也不會(huì)發(fā)生。

觀察者網(wǎng)：一個(gè)國(guó)家的實(shí)力不僅體現(xiàn)在經(jīng)濟(jì)方面，也體現(xiàn)在軟實(shí)力方面。您認(rèn)為全球南方國(guó)家如何才能增強(qiáng)其在世界上的軟實(shí)力？

恩格卡維尼：在南非，當(dāng)人們提起“北京”時(shí)，就會(huì)想到婦女權(quán)利斗爭(zhēng)，因?yàn)槁?lián)合國(guó)第四次世界婦女大會(huì)就以此為議題，產(chǎn)生了《北京宣言》。除了婦女，其他過(guò)去被邊緣化的國(guó)家和社區(qū)都在尋找自己的聲音，正在變得更加自信和堅(jiān)定，維護(hù)自己的國(guó)家利益和主權(quán)。

擁有金磚這樣的組織是非常好的，因?yàn)樗梢灾С趾挽柟踢@種正在形成的國(guó)際凝聚力，以實(shí)現(xiàn)一個(gè)更加公正公平的世界。南非一直強(qiáng)調(diào)的是，我們要建設(shè)一個(gè)更美好的南非、更美好的非洲和更美好的世界，這是南非外交決策的目標(biāo)和主線。

非洲的發(fā)展需要兩樣?xùn)|西

觀察者網(wǎng)：在上文提到的訪問(wèn)中，中國(guó)外長(zhǎng)王毅還表示，中國(guó)支持非洲加快實(shí)現(xiàn)《2063年議程》。非洲將如何實(shí)現(xiàn)這一雄心勃勃的議程，尤其是在面臨金融、政治、社會(huì)等方面的諸多難題？

恩格卡維尼：非洲各國(guó)正在快速發(fā)展。當(dāng)我讀到金磚五國(guó)和金磚組織的聲明時(shí)，都提及了《2063年議程》和可持續(xù)發(fā)展準(zhǔn)則，這讓我備受鼓舞。

《2063年議程》對(duì)于涉及全球南方的多邊平臺(tái)來(lái)說(shuō)，具有重要意義，這是非洲實(shí)現(xiàn)一些目標(biāo)的第一步。發(fā)展需要什么？需要資本和專(zhuān)業(yè)知識(shí)。當(dāng)全球社會(huì)支持你的發(fā)展議程時(shí)，資源、資本、貿(mào)易和技能就能夠被釋放。因此，對(duì)許多非洲國(guó)家來(lái)說(shuō)，《2063年議程》將是發(fā)展和投資本國(guó)社會(huì)經(jīng)濟(jì)基礎(chǔ)設(shè)施的重要機(jī)會(huì)，從而推動(dòng)非洲國(guó)家與全球社會(huì)的貿(mào)易，尤其是出口高附加值產(chǎn)品。

非洲的《2063年議程》

觀察者網(wǎng)：您提到了非洲需要的兩樣?xùn)|西，一個(gè)是資本，一個(gè)是專(zhuān)業(yè)知識(shí)。這兩樣?xùn)|西都可能會(huì)受到西方國(guó)家政策的負(fù)面影響，因?yàn)槿A爾街一直從各國(guó)吸引大量資本，而且全球南方許多國(guó)家都出現(xiàn)人才外流的現(xiàn)象，一些最聰明的年輕人去了美國(guó)或歐洲。面對(duì)這些挑戰(zhàn)，如何實(shí)現(xiàn)《2063年議程》呢？

恩格卡維尼：讓我舉個(gè)例子。我最近和南非國(guó)家領(lǐng)導(dǎo)人一起去了肯尼亞蒙巴薩當(dāng)?shù)卣畬W(xué)校開(kāi)展培訓(xùn)。在蒙巴薩，我看到了肯尼亞人如何非常高效率地管理港口。據(jù)我觀察，蒙巴薩港是非洲大陸效率最高的港口之一：管理港口的肯尼亞人規(guī)定任何船只等待卸貨的時(shí)間不得超過(guò)三天，還用當(dāng)?shù)厝诉\(yùn)營(yíng)了一條鐵路線，利用南非的投資和中國(guó)的專(zhuān)業(yè)技術(shù)修建了一些公路等等。

因此，盡管有些國(guó)家經(jīng)歷了人才流失，但一旦當(dāng)資本被調(diào)動(dòng)起來(lái)，有了明確的項(xiàng)目規(guī)劃后，人才是會(huì)回來(lái)的。就像中國(guó)人留學(xué)后從美國(guó)回國(guó)，在工程、航天等領(lǐng)域工作。如果中國(guó)人愿意離開(kāi)美國(guó)大學(xué)回國(guó)參與航天項(xiàng)目，非洲人也可以。

在華非洲留學(xué)生

觀察者網(wǎng)：這似乎與“一帶一路”倡議的初衷吻合，既中國(guó)分享自己的發(fā)展經(jīng)驗(yàn)，當(dāng)然“一帶一路”框架下在當(dāng)?shù)赝顿Y的項(xiàng)目對(duì)此也有幫助?！耙粠б宦贰背h在過(guò)去十年中發(fā)揮了多大作用？它已經(jīng)成立十周年了，您對(duì)其未來(lái)十年有何期待？

恩格卡維尼：關(guān)于“一帶一路”倡議，我想強(qiáng)調(diào)一點(diǎn)：今天的“一帶一路”倡議，和十年前已經(jīng)非常不同了。七年前，我個(gè)人對(duì)“一帶一路”倡議的意見(jiàn)是，參與倡議的相關(guān)方缺少溝通，但現(xiàn)在問(wèn)題不存在了，“一帶一路”相關(guān)方的溝通及管理都有了很大的改善。在任何一個(gè)國(guó)家，如果要修建一條鐵路線，卻不讓當(dāng)?shù)厣鐓^(qū)參與進(jìn)來(lái)，都是肯定會(huì)遭到抵制的。如果你想修建一條鐵路線，但當(dāng)?shù)厣鐓^(qū)看不到價(jià)值，他們就會(huì)抵制。因此，今天的“一帶一路”倡議無(wú)疑是更受歡迎的，因?yàn)橛辛烁玫男麄鞣绞?，宣傳“一帶一路”能帶?lái)的切實(shí)好處。

我還有另外一個(gè)個(gè)人意見(jiàn)?！耙粠б宦贰迸c其他所有項(xiàng)目一樣，都是以合同為基礎(chǔ)的。如果我賣(mài)給你一部手機(jī)，簽合同前我告訴你這部手機(jī)賣(mài)一百元人民幣，你有權(quán)力說(shuō)“不，這部手機(jī)不可能值一百元，它最多值八十元”，你可以就合同條款進(jìn)行談判。非洲和所有其他國(guó)家一樣，必須在合同管理方面增加信心和專(zhuān)業(yè)知識(shí)?，F(xiàn)在，人們的自主意識(shí)越來(lái)越強(qiáng)，人們?cè)絹?lái)越自信，他們正在談判更好的條件，他們管理利益相關(guān)者的方式也與多年前不同。這實(shí)際上是令人鼓舞的。

當(dāng)我在歐洲時(shí)，我從報(bào)紙上讀到意大利正在考慮退出“一帶一路”倡議，于是我問(wèn)自己，如果已經(jīng)有了項(xiàng)目計(jì)劃，并且已經(jīng)做出了承諾，那么退出有什么意義？

我認(rèn)為，許多國(guó)家需要提高談判能力。很多時(shí)候人們?cè)跊](méi)有談判的情況下就簽署了糟糕的合同，這可能因?yàn)閬?lái)自各方的壓力，人們總是期望項(xiàng)目盡早有進(jìn)度。重要的是：溝通、管理好合同，然后談判出對(duì)所有人都有利的合同。

觀察者網(wǎng)：談判接觸可以減少?zèng)_突，但也有某些國(guó)家和勢(shì)力希望減少接觸。比如，華為就是一家頻頻成為美國(guó)制裁和“脫鉤斷鏈”對(duì)象的公司。最近，華為在南非成立了創(chuàng)新中心，這也成為了美國(guó)批評(píng)的對(duì)象。對(duì)此，你怎么看？

恩格卡維尼：拉馬福薩本人參與了華為南非創(chuàng)新中心的揭幕儀式。過(guò)去15年來(lái)，華為在南非市場(chǎng)取得了顯著發(fā)展，他們帶來(lái)的技術(shù)使其成為南非科技領(lǐng)域的重要部分，并在南非持續(xù)投資。許多南非人都用華為手機(jī)，它已成功立足南非市場(chǎng)。華為對(duì)南非進(jìn)行的投資，也是南非人信任其品牌的原因。

7月13日，拉馬福薩出席華為南非創(chuàng)新中心剪彩儀式（圖源：華為）

當(dāng)然，由于地緣戰(zhàn)略原因，某些人也會(huì)進(jìn)行批評(píng)。我能說(shuō)的是，難道我們應(yīng)該要求普通南非人不購(gòu)買(mǎi)華為手機(jī)嗎？如果消費(fèi)者做出了選擇，不管政府喜歡什么，強(qiáng)迫他們改變應(yīng)該是非常困難的。除非設(shè)置貿(mào)易壁壘，強(qiáng)迫人們不要購(gòu)買(mǎi)某些產(chǎn)品。如果消費(fèi)者認(rèn)為產(chǎn)品質(zhì)量好，買(mǎi)得起，他們就會(huì)買(mǎi)。

觀察者網(wǎng)：我們?cè)倩氐健?063年議程》，其中提到了“非洲復(fù)興”這個(gè)概念。在南非，特別是前總統(tǒng)姆貝基一直倡導(dǎo)這一概念。您能否簡(jiǎn)要介紹一下這個(gè)概念，以及迄今為止在這方面取得了哪些進(jìn)展？

恩格卡維尼：“非洲復(fù)興”這個(gè)概念已經(jīng)存在了20年，并回蕩在整個(gè)非洲大陸?！?063年議程》正是關(guān)于非洲復(fù)興的。

非洲復(fù)興包括但不限于：技能革命，讓年輕人通過(guò)教育和培訓(xùn)系統(tǒng)，包括職業(yè)教育和高等教育，獲得先進(jìn)技能，這是非洲復(fù)興的關(guān)鍵。在許多國(guó)家包括南非，年輕人接受高等教育的比率已經(jīng)翻了兩番。南非目前面臨的最大壓力是擴(kuò)大對(duì)年輕人接受高等教育的財(cái)政支持。

此外，家庭傭工、清潔工、服務(wù)員和出租車(chē)司機(jī)的子女都在接受高等教育，這對(duì)實(shí)現(xiàn)公平也非常重要。許多來(lái)自非常貧窮的非洲國(guó)家學(xué)生在中國(guó)接受高等教育，獲得技能，與政府簽訂合同，然后回國(guó)。他們會(huì)參與建設(shè)非洲大陸的網(wǎng)絡(luò)產(chǎn)業(yè)，包括鐵路線、電信、公路、鐵路等。

最新統(tǒng)計(jì)出的非洲手機(jī)普及率令人吃驚：在非洲一些國(guó)家，很多人擁有兩部以上的手機(jī)。此外，諸如南非、肯尼亞、盧旺達(dá)等地的人們正在進(jìn)行無(wú)現(xiàn)金交易。當(dāng)然，非洲復(fù)興也意味著必須有公平的貿(mào)易。由于各國(guó)設(shè)置的一些貿(mào)易限制，使許多非洲國(guó)家的產(chǎn)品在市場(chǎng)準(zhǔn)入方面舉步維艱。非洲復(fù)興還包括非洲作為平等成員參與改革多邊國(guó)際體系，這也是非洲人擁護(hù)金磚的原因，很多國(guó)家很感激受邀參加金磚組織及其活動(dòng)。

中非論壇、非洲復(fù)興、《2063年議程》和非洲聯(lián)盟之間存在許多價(jià)值和意義上的共鳴。正是因?yàn)橹蟹钦搲С帜壳霸凇?063年議程》中表達(dá)的非洲復(fù)興議程，非洲領(lǐng)導(dǎo)人非常樂(lè)意加入其中。

觀察者網(wǎng)：您提到了非洲取得的一些進(jìn)展，但是非洲最近的發(fā)展事業(yè)，特別是南非的發(fā)展事業(yè)，遇到了一些挫折。除了我們之前談到的糧食問(wèn)題，還有能源危機(jī)。南非一直面臨大面積停電問(wèn)題，這是什么原因造成的，如何解決這些問(wèn)題？

恩格卡維尼：幸運(yùn)的是，新開(kāi)發(fā)銀行的賬簿顯示，南非已獲得超過(guò)40億美元的貸款；目前至少有12個(gè)相關(guān)項(xiàng)目正在進(jìn)行中，其中接近一半是能源項(xiàng)目。莫桑比克現(xiàn)在也開(kāi)發(fā)了很多能源工程，那里發(fā)現(xiàn)了天然氣并正開(kāi)展相關(guān)工程。在尼日利亞，他們剛剛建成了非洲最大的煉油廠，這對(duì)該地區(qū)的燃料供應(yīng)非常重要。

你所描述的停電情況，是由于投資延遲以及在維護(hù)和產(chǎn)能建設(shè)方面投資不足造成的。新產(chǎn)能剛剛建成，在效率等方面存在許多挑戰(zhàn)。但是，現(xiàn)在有大量投資正在用于重建我們的能源基礎(chǔ)，其中包括來(lái)自中國(guó)的公司。順便提一下，即使在停電頻發(fā)的情況下，南非仍然在通過(guò)所謂的“南部非洲電力聯(lián)營(yíng)”（Southern African Power Pool）向鄰國(guó)出售電力。

南非約翰內(nèi)斯堡2月的一次停電（圖源：AP）

觀察者網(wǎng)：投資方如何獲得回報(bào)？

恩格卡維尼：在南非，能源是通過(guò)市場(chǎng)交易的，有反映成本的定價(jià)，不是免費(fèi)的。政府為貧困家庭提供電力補(bǔ)貼，但不是所有人都享有這一福利。

這就是為什么中國(guó)企業(yè)、沙特企業(yè)、歐洲和其他國(guó)家的企業(yè)都在南非投資新的發(fā)電能力，因?yàn)樗麄冎滥戏怯锌色@利的市場(chǎng)。

觀察者網(wǎng)：過(guò)去一年，南非在全球地緣政治中的重要性急劇上升，達(dá)到了近幾十年來(lái)從未有過(guò)的高度。您認(rèn)為這是什么原因造成的？南非突然受到全球關(guān)注，是件好事嗎？金磚國(guó)家峰會(huì)之后，國(guó)際關(guān)注度是否會(huì)有所減退，如果南非希望成為全球關(guān)注的焦點(diǎn)，該如何留住大家的目光？

恩格卡維尼：南非政府從未說(shuō)過(guò)類(lèi)似“我們宣布從明天起要成為全球關(guān)系的中心”這樣的話。然而，正是由于南非以公平公正為目標(biāo)，積極參與多邊合作，人們才會(huì)關(guān)注南非。

前總統(tǒng)曼德拉在1994年南非重獲自由時(shí)說(shuō)過(guò)兩句重要的話：南非將重新成為國(guó)際社會(huì)的一員，不再是世界舞臺(tái)上的“搗蛋鬼”。這是意義重大的——它確定了我們的外交政策立場(chǎng)，即我們重新成為一個(gè)積極的參與者。第二，曼德拉說(shuō)，在巴勒斯坦獲得自由之前，我們的自由將不會(huì)是完整的。

南非前總統(tǒng)曼德拉（圖源：AFP）

這種精神體現(xiàn)在南非政府的各種決定中。拉馬福薩最近作為非洲領(lǐng)導(dǎo)人代表團(tuán)的一員前往烏克蘭和俄羅斯，他實(shí)際上是在踐行曼德拉總統(tǒng)所說(shuō)的話，即沒(méi)有和平就沒(méi)有發(fā)展，沖突可以和平解決。在北愛(ài)爾蘭沖突時(shí)，南非在其中發(fā)揮了非常關(guān)鍵的作用。在剛果民主共和國(guó)、布隆迪等地的沖突中，南非也發(fā)揮了非常關(guān)鍵的作用。南非還參與了南蘇丹、萊索托和世界許多其他地區(qū)的調(diào)停工作。

這也是金磚組織傳遞的信息，即發(fā)展必須是公平的，必須具有國(guó)際代表性，必須惠及各個(gè)國(guó)家和地區(qū)的人民。許多人認(rèn)為南非參加G20峰會(huì)實(shí)際上肩負(fù)的是整個(gè)非洲大陸議程的使命，南非也必須肩負(fù)起這一使命。因?yàn)槲覀儾粫?huì)忘記，南非是全球團(tuán)結(jié)一致結(jié)束種族隔離運(yùn)動(dòng)的最大受益者。

其次，南非是全球社會(huì)支持的艾滋病團(tuán)結(jié)行動(dòng)的最大受益者。在出現(xiàn)新冠疫情時(shí)，南非采取了與其他許多國(guó)家不同的立場(chǎng)，這是有原因的。世界上任何地方、任何地方都可能出現(xiàn)大流行病和流行病，重要的是政府如何應(yīng)對(duì)。南非的立場(chǎng)基于團(tuán)結(jié)精神的基本原則。

如果我們?cè)诜N族隔離、艾滋病毒和新冠等問(wèn)題上一直是這種全球團(tuán)結(jié)的受益者，我們相信像金磚這樣的平臺(tái)可以用來(lái)動(dòng)員國(guó)際凝聚力，解決世界許多地方的發(fā)展問(wèn)題。這就是為什么我們的總統(tǒng)邀請(qǐng)非洲各國(guó)參與金磚；沒(méi)有一個(gè)金磚國(guó)家的成員國(guó)說(shuō)不要把非洲帶入金磚組織，反而擁護(hù)非洲的參與。其他金磚國(guó)家的領(lǐng)導(dǎo)人贊賞南非肩負(fù)的責(zé)任，即推動(dòng)非洲大陸的發(fā)展。

南非相信，我們可以建立一個(gè)更加公平的體系。金磚各國(guó)領(lǐng)導(dǎo)人高度評(píng)價(jià)即將舉行的金磚五國(guó)非洲會(huì)議，這非常好。正如我先前所說(shuō)，這將是近期南非歷史上規(guī)模最大的多邊會(huì)議之一。

以下為部分英文原文：

Guancha: In the upcoming BRICS summit in your country, President Putin was slated to visit South Africa for the BRICS summit, but Putin and President Ramaphosa had recently announced that by mutual agreement, Russia will instead send for Minister Lavrov. Given that Russia had previously been reportedly adamant that Putin attend in person, what do you think caused this change and was it because Ramaphosa managed to convince Putin that actually coming here might be a bad idea? Some have pointed to the US role in this and claims that this represents a US foreign policy victory. What do you think of this?

Ngcaweni: The South African government stated that president Putin, by mutual agreement is not coming for Russia. And in the same statement, it is stated that Russia remains a full member of BRICS, active participant in BRICS. I'm yet to read a statement from any BRICS member state that doubts the credibility of BRICS as a result of that. The spirits are high in South Africa is the great anticipation for the Summits. Many countries already are sending delegations. We have had over six BRICS summits already taken place in South Africa. I hosted a conference myself of BRICS Schools of government two weeks ago, 1100 online participants, 250 people present, 50 papers presented at the conference, participants from Sao Paulo to St. Petersburg, New Delhi and and everywhere else.

So it's a very exciting moment in the south Africa, at the moment, I think as our minister of Foreign Affairs have stated before, South Africa takes his own position on foreign relations matters. I'm sure you've seen videos of my foreign minister, reasserting South Africa's position in this regard, and South Africa wouldn't make a decision because it has been influenced by another country. I think we've been very emphatic on the non-aligned issue. And our president has been part of the Africa Initiative, all those African heads of states that went to Russia, even recently he was there. South Africa's position is public. We look forward to hosting a Great BRICS Summit. It's the largest summit actually in recent memory.

Guancha: South Africa’s neutrality seems to be displeasing to the west to say the least. They probably believe that actually you, South Africa, should belong as part of the west. And maybe the statements from South Africa over the past year has received such a strong reaction from the west because this went against their assumption.

Ngcaweni: South Africa was part of the non-aligned movement from the beginning. The African National Congress has been engaging with the Non-aligned movement even before it became a government in 1994. It has been very consistent in that regard. In fact, if you remember, they were at the conference in Bandung. The apartheid government was not represented there, it was the leaders of the liberation movement. I mentioned Bandung because if you think about Asia, Africa, solidarity and Latin Americans or Global South as a whole, Bandung is an important moment where I the yellow star of China meets the Black Star which is Africa.

So there has been a consistency on the non- aligned stance. Of course, different parties to the conflict have got their own views and wishes and try to have as many people support their views. Most important to South Africa is calling for peaceful resolution of disputes, which is a necessary condition for focusing on national development.

Guancha: As you say, the global south will pick its own course and not be dragged into this new cold war, confrontation, however you might want to call it, but if we look back to the Cold War at South Africa specifically, South Africa was basically turned into a frontline country of the Cold War because the then apartheid government was basically backed by the US for a long time, while the ANC also received some support from the Soviet Union. So how can South Africa avoid being made into a frontline in any new confrontation against its will?

Ngcaweni: Let me tell you something. At times, governments can take certain positions about situations in other countries, but that does not always translate to how the public or the people feel about it. And I'm stating this because even at that time where America, UK, in Israel did not support the idea of declaring apartheid crime against humanity. But in the UK and in the US, there was an anti-apartheid movement there. At some point, the leadership of the ANC was in London even as the administration of the UK the time was refusing to condemn what was happening in South Africa is terrorism.

So I personally make that distinction where governments can take particular positions, but as is the case here, you read every statement, whether it's a global development initiative, BRI, FOCAC, and so on, the emphasis from the leadership of the People's Republic of China is building cultural ties and people to people contact, which means those ties will go beyond what an administration may think. That is why I'm saying to you, in spite of what may be going on at a level of political leadership, there are Chinese who enjoy certain American products. There are Americans who enjoy certain Chinese products, because that is how people and markets feel about those countries, although governments may take a particular direction. And so the idea of investing in people to people contact is fundamental, because you can avoid wars and conflicts by having those strong ties.

This the case everywhere in the world.

Guancha: I guess the concept of the global south has changed a lot since the Bandung conference, which is like more than half a century ago. Since that time, the Soviet Union has collapsed and America has gone from the Cold War , to becoming the only superpower, and then now, engaging a new Cold War with China. So what do you think these shifts in the broader geopolitical landscape means for the concept of the Global South？

Ngcaweni: In an academic environment we will elaborate on how managing geopolitics and sustaining your relevance and impact depends on your ability to manage contradictions, so between China and the US, there's been trade wars and now there is a concept of Silicon war, but Chinese people continue to consume American products and American people continue to consume Chinese products, even when there are extreme positions taken by governments. there is a way of managing those contradictions and that is why there's been an exchange at a very high level. Whatever walls are there, those must not interrupt the momentum of the global south towards achieving economic prosperity.

And the global south appreciates this. We trade with the US, our second largest trading partner after China. We trade with India. We trade with Brazil. South Africans love Brazilian shoes. In this calendar year, for example, Chinese and Indian cars made cars are in the top ten of the most sold new cars in South Africa. South Africans’ taste for Chinese vehicles is growing.

The Global South needs to also trade with itself, but also  trade with the global North. We need investment within the global South and investment from North-South relations. I am yet to read a statement from the leaders of the global south saying they do not want to trade or to have relation in the global north. The Global South is assessing itself and taking care of the needs of their own people without necessarily saying we are cutting the ties with the global North. I have not read a statement like that.

Ngcaweni: Well, what is the important for the Global South is for them to speak with one voice when it comes to the agenda of peace, national development, fair and equitable multilateralism. Once we find common ground, it becomes relatively easier to design a program of action and implement it. So for example, the Global South has a view that the multilateral system need to be transformed, to be representative and equitable, and that the multilateral system must be responsive to the needs of the whole global community, in particular developing countries—emerging countries. That is important because from that you launch a program of action, you get the response to these challenges. In fact if you look at how countries in the Global South are engaging with BRICS, that is the sign of the hope they have that the BRICS platform offers that opportunity of a fair and equitable and a representative multilateralism that many countries in the Global South are aiming for. You must remember that it is not all countries of the Global South that enjoy unlimited free trade with the Global North, that have got affordable credit lines with the Global North, that got easy people to people contact with the Global North.

Certainly I read every statement from our foreign minister, from cabinet, from our president and these statements are very consistent and that is why South Africa, as a host of this BRICS (summit), we have invited so many heads of states, because we understand the responsibility that is carried by countries who are in BRICS, not only to represent themselves, but also to champion the cause of development and the aspirations of their own neighbors. No country can develop on its own as an island. It has never happened in history and it should not happen in future, which is why it's important to build this solidarity.

Guancha: Part of the voice of a country, is not just in terms of economics, but also in terms of soft power. How do you think the Global South can enhance their soft power in the world—in a world that is dominated by Western narratives, at least as of right now.

Ngcaweni: So my reading of statements from different countries in the Global South is that they are asserting themselves. They are asserting their sovereignty. They are asserting their national interest. They are making decisions on who and how to align (with) in pursuit of their national interest, as well as regional interest. Because the world is changing very rapidly. In South Africa, when you talk about Beijing, people think we are talking about women's rights and struggles because of the Beijing Conference. The same is happening for other marginalized countries and communities who are stating, making claims, they are being assertive, they're clearer. And of course, it's good to have organizations like BRICS that can support, can anchor this international solidarity that is emerging, towards a just and equitable world. In South Africa's foreign policy, we use the following words and these are very pertinent. We say we want to build a better South Africa, a better Africa and a better world. And that is a goal and thread in foreign policy decisions, of South Africa.

Guancha: During the aforementioned meeting, Wang Yi had also said that China supports Africa achieving Agenda 2063. How will Africa achieve this ambitious agenda, especially in the face of many challenges, financial, political, social, etc.

Ngcaweni: There's a lot of developments happening in different countries in the African continent. This is encouraging even for me as a public servant, that when I read statements from BRICS and BRICS member states, they do mention Agenda 2063. They do mention sustainable development codes, which means these multilateral platforms like BRICS have read statements from the various ASEAN leaders when they meet, they talk in supports of the SDGs and so on. This agenda of development is pertinent in many multilateral platforms, especially involving the Global South. That is step number one towards Africa realizing some of its goals. I say that, because what do you need? You need capital, you need expertise. And when you have a global community that supports your agenda, it unlocks resources, capital, it unlocks investments, it unlocks trade, it unlocks skills as well. So for many African countries, Agenda 2063 for them means they can develop and invest in infrastructure, social economy infrastructure in their countries. But for many of them, Agenda 2063 also means they can trade freely with a global community. And in particular, they can sell high value added products, which means that if people in the Global South are investing, there's lots of investment opportunities, then you know there are markets, and those products can be processed in the African continent and they can be sold globally.

Guancha: You mentioned two things that they will need. One is capital and one is expertise. Both of these feel like they might come under either direct or indirect challenge from the policies of western countries, because Wall Street sucks in lots of capital, also much of the global south has ran brain drains against the western countries, where the brightest of the young people end up in America or in Europe. So in the face of these challenges, how would the summit agenda be achieved?

Ngcaweni: Let me give you an example. I was recently in Kenya, in Mombasa. I saw Kenyans running a very efficient port in Kenya, in Mombasa. But I observed that at the port is that part in Mombasa is among the most efficient ports in the African continent, and is run by Kenyans. And I saw young people, they took us on a tour there. I was traveling with very senior leaders from South Africa. We were doing training at the Kenya School of government. I saw Kenyans running a very sophisticated port where they have standards that say no ship must wait to offload for more than three days. They also run a railway line using local people, they’ve built some roads with South African investment, Chinese expertise and so on. So whilst there would be countries (that have) experienced brain drain, in many instances when capital is mobilized, there's a clear project pipeline, people do go back to work on those sophisticated projects, just as the Chinese came back from the US to work in Iqiyi, in engineering, in space and so on. If the Chinese will come back and be part of the space program and leave American universities, Africans would do the same.

Guancha: What you describe, that reminds me of the BRI, which is China sharing its development path to other countries around the world. And certainly in Africa, many project are part of BRI and can help with your problem. It could help in terms of reversing the brain drains through the sharing of the of China's experience as you describe. So how much of a role has BRI played in its last 10 years? Its come to its 10th anniversary. And what do you expect for the next 10 years?

Ngcaweni: So let me just emphasize one point with regards to BRI. BRI today and BRI nine years ago, it's two different things. My private criticism of BRI seven years ago and so on was that there was very poor communication around it by all parties involved. And that now there has been a major improvement in the communications around BRI projects and the management of stakeholders. In any country, if you want to build a railway line and you do not engage local communities, they will resist. If you want to build a railway line and they don't see value, they will resist. If you want to build a dam and major pipelines and local people don't believe that they will now have access to water, they will resent or resist. So BRI today is in a better position because there has been more deliberate way of communicating what the BRI is and what its benefits are.

Let me tell you my other controversial private position. BRI projects like all others are based on contracts. Contracts are between two or more parties. If I am selling you a phone and we sign a contract and I tell you that it is one hundred RMB, and these are the terms and conditions, you have the responsibility to say, no, this phone cannot be one hundred, it's eighty; you need to negotiate the term and conditions of the contract. Africa, like all other countries, must gain confidence and expertise in contract management. People are now becoming more aware, more assertive, they’re negotiating better terms, they are managing stakeholders differently today than they did many years ago. And that is actually encouraging. When I was in Europe I read in a newspaper that Italy is thinking of pulling out from the BRI, so I was asking myself, what does pulling out mean, if there's already a project pipeline and commitments have been made and so on?

I think that many countries need to gain negotiating capability to do that, because people sign bad contracts without negotiating because there are different pressures, they want to see equipment moving next week. Communicate, manage the contracts well, and then negotiate contracts that are winning for everybody.

Guancha: Certainly engagement reduces conflict, but there are certain countries and forces that want to at least reduce engagement. Huawei is a company that has been frequently targeted by the US sanctions. Recently, Huawei launched an Innovation Center in South Africa. This has also made the target of criticism by the US, as well as the naval military drills between South Africa, China and Russia earlier this year, were also subject to criticism. So what do you think is a reason for their criticism of South Africa?

Ngcaweni: Our president went to open that innovation center. Huawei has grown significantly in this market over the past 15 years and they're bringing technology and skills and so on and that is part now of the South African technology ecosystem and it has invested in the country itself. Many South Africans carry Huawei phones, because the market has developed a taste for that. South Africans embrace the investment made by them and is why they trust those brands. And of course, because of geostrategic reasons, they would be criticism. All I can tell you is it would be very difficult to tell ordinary South Africans not to buy a Huawei phone. It should be very difficult if consumers have made them choice, regardless of what government might like, it would be very difficult unless you put trade barriers to tell people not to buy certain products, unless you block them at the port.  If they think it’s of quality, if they think they can afford, they’ll buy it.

Guancha: Part of Agenda 2063 includes the African concept of African Renaissance, which is championed by South Africa, especially by former president Mbeki. Could you describe it briefly and what has been the progress there so far?

Ngcaweni: Well, it is the renaissance or the revival of the African continent. This concept has been there for 20 years now, and echoes throughout the continent. If you read Agenda 2063, it is precisely about the revival. The renaissance of Africa involves amongst others but not limited to: one, a skills revolution, getting young people through education and training system, including vocational and tertiary education, gain advance skills. That is key to renaissance. And in many other countries, certainly in South Africa, if you look at the rate of participation of young people in higher education, the number quadrupled. The biggest pressures on the state is to expand financial support for young people to go to the system in South Africa. Children of domestic workers, of cleaners, of waiters and waitresses of taxi drivers are going through higher education which is important for equity. Here in China today, many African students come from very poor countries, they obtain higher education for skills, they've got contract with their governments and they go back. It is building the network industries in Africa. Network industries include railway line, telecommunications, roads, rail and so on. The latest statistics on the penetration of cellular technology in the African continent is amazing, in some countries in Africa, people carry more than two phones. In Africa there are countries like Kenya in South Africa, Rwanda where people are making cashless transactions and so on. That's part of the renaissance in the continent. Renaissance also involves Africa participating as an equal member in a transformed multilateral system and that's why Africans embrace BRICS and they are happy when they get invited to engage in BRICS.

If you read the FOCAC and you read the African renaissance, Agenda 2063 and what the AU represents, you see there is resonance. If FOCAC was not supporting that agenda of renaissance in Africa which is currently expressed in the Agenda 2063, I doubt that Africa leaders will join FOCAC. Because these forums that are responsive to the aspirations of Africans, they respond positively to them. And of course, African renaissance also means that there must be a fair trade. And there's many African countries who have products that struggle with market access because there are certain restrictions that are put by various countries.

Guancha: You've described some of the progress. However, there's lately been some major setbacks to the cause of African development or South African development specifically. Other than the grain issues, which we've talked about previously, there's also energy crisis. South Africa has been contending with rolling blackouts. What caused this and how can these issues be fixed?

Ngcaweni: Fortunately, you read the through the books of the New Development Bank or the BRICS Bank as it is called, you'll see that over $4 billion rents has been loaned into South Africa and there is 12 projects at least underway currently. And just under half of those are energy projects. There are also a lot of work going on in Mozambique now, with natural gases being discovered and work happening there. In Nigeria, they've just finished one of the largest oil refinery there which will be very important for the supply of fuel in that region.

What you described in South Africa is because of delayed investments and under-investment in maintenance and in building capacity. The new capacity that has been built came a bit late, there are many challenges of efficiencies and so on. But there's massive investment going towards now rebuilding the our energy capacity and we've got Chinese companies there.

By the way, even with rolling blackouts, South Africa still distributes or sells electricity to its neighboring countries because of what is called the Southern African Power Pool.

Guancha: How will investor make the returns back on these investments?

Ngcaweni: Well, energy is for sale in South Africa. It's a cost-reflective tariff. It's not for free. The government subsidize electricity for poor households, but not a hundred percent.

So that is why Chinese firms, Saudi firms, firms from Europe and elsewhere are investing in new generation capacity in South Africa, because they understand that there is the energy market.

Guancha: South Africa's global geopolitical importance has skyrocketed this past year to a level that has hasn't been seen in decades. What do you think is a reason for this? Do you view this sudden global attention to your country as a good thing? Would this attention recede somewhat after the BRICS summit? And if South Africa wants to be the center of global attention, how might you maintain this level of global relevance?

Ngcaweni: I have never been in a meeting myself or read a statement by government of South Africa saying, we declare that from tomorrow we want to be the center of global relationships. It is however the involvement of South Africa in multilateralism that results in people making that conclusion, because South Africa identifies itself with just causes.

President Mandela said in 1994, when we won freedom, two important statements, that South Africa is back as a member of the global community. And South Africa would not be the skunk of the world or the naughty child of the world. That was significant because it was defining of a foreign policy stance that we are back as a player, and a positive player. Number two, Mandela said, our freedom is incomplete until Palestine is free. That spirit permeates in various decisions of governments. As our president recently was part of a delegation of leaders going to Ukraine and to Russia. He was in fact carrying out what President Mandela said, that here could be not development without peace and that there can be a peaceful resolution of conflict. You may know that when there was conflict in Ireland, South Africa played a very pivotal role in that. During the conflict in the DRC in Burundi and so on, South Africa played a very crucial role. South Africa is also involved in the mediation efforts in the South Sudan, Lesotho and many other parts of the world. This is a message you hear at BRICS that this development must be equitable, must be representative and that it must be felt by the people in these countries and the regions. People say, South Africa, you are going to G20, but we are carrying the African agenda mandate. South Africa must carry that. Remember, the South Africa is the largest beneficiary of global solidarity to end the apartheid movement.

Secondly, South Africa is the biggest beneficiary of the AIDS pandemic solidarity where the global community supported. There is a reason why when there was COVID, South Africa adopted a different position to other countries in the world. And their position was based on the fundamental principle of solidarity, that there could be pandemics and epidemics anywhere, everywhere in the world. What matters is how do you respond as a government, as a country to that. And if we've been beneficiary of this solidarity, on apartheid and HIV and AIDS and so on, we believe that platforms like BRICS are useful mechanism that you can use to mobilize international solidarity, deal with problems of development in many parts of the world. And that is why our president is bringing Africa into BRICS and importantly, none of the BRICS member states said don't bring Africa into BRICS. They are going to embrace Africa. The leadership of BRICS appreciated South Africa carries that responsibility, that torch of development in the continent. And we believe that we can build a fairer system. And this is great that the leaders of BRICS understand and appreciate that they are going into a meeting of BRICS Africa. As I said earlier, this would be one of the largest multilateral meetings in recent memory.

（翻譯、整理：李遠(yuǎn)信、董子微）

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